Now that seemed to me fair at the time, and now what you gentlemen want to do is what the chairman has brought up, to bring those two things together.

Should we bring them together? Do the same conditions exist as existed in 1955?

General DODGE. Since this applies primarily to the National Guard, might I ask General Wilson to comment on it?

General WILSON. Senator, you are exactly right. Back in 1955 the personnel that we were looking forward to were the 17 to 1812. Due to the fact that selective service took the people 1812 and above, and about 2 years after that the selective service issued the bulletin as the chairman has stated, allowing the 1812 to be enlisted in the guard program, with not a statutory deferment, but an administrative deferment as long as they so participated in the program.

Chairman RUSSELL. That is not only the guard; it includes the Reserve.

General WILSON. Yes, sir. It includes both the guard and the Reserve.

Chairman RUSSELL. Yes.

General WILSON. That is right, sir.

In going through this we felt that on an equitable basis, based on a fellow who has been on active duty for 2 years, absent 2 years on active duty, that we should make all personnel from the 17 to 26 age group have the same military obligation of 8 years.

We felt that the 1812 should be given a statutory deferment as long as they participated, so that they would all be equal, and this bill tends to do that.

Now, this has been discussed with the Air Section 5, and Army Section 5, and, as General Dodge says, the RFPB, and they all concur in this length of service, and we in the guard certainly support this bill and we think it is a very necessary bill.

Chairman RUSSELL. I think it is evident that they should have the same length of service obligation, these two categories. Any differences that might have existed in 1955 for a differential have passed, but there is a question in my mind as to whether we ought to extend one group or bring the other one down to 6 years.

I do not think it will result in any calamity if we limited the reserve obligation to 6 years.

Any further questions?

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, can we get General Wilson's comment on the statement you made? I would like to get his reaction. General WILSON. It is my opinion, sir, that all age groups should be the same.

Senator THURMOND. I agree with that. But should it be up or down? The question is whether it should be 8 or 6 years.

General WILSON. Of course, the way we feel, the way I personally feel, is that, having been in the guard some 30 years, and when I went in we did not have an obligation but later on there was an obligation up to age 35, I personally do not think that the time of 8 years bothers anybody. That would be my opinion, sir.

Senator THURMOND. What is the advantage in having the 8 years? Point that out to the committee.

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General WILSON. Well, the advantage of having 8 years of obligation for the Ready Reserve which, if you take out the 6 months' training program, that gives them 712 of Ready Reserve service in our units, it gives you continued less turnover, you might say, longer availability of personnel for use in case of emergency; and you have a lot of money invested in these people; and if it is 6 years, if you cut it 2 years, you still are rotating people.

Chairman RUSSELL. You do not get anything out of them in the last 2 years now, do you, General?

General WILSON. In this program we have-yes, sir. In this it would be a total of 71⁄2 years of Ready Reserve availability.

Chairman RUSSELL. Yes. But as a practical matter you do not do it now.

General WILSON. No, sir; in the Army National Guard.

Chairman RUSSELL. You put him in the Standby Reserve after 52 years. He goes in automatically, does he not, at the present time? General WILSON. Yes, sir; under the present regulations, unless he voluntarily extends it.

Chairman RUSSELL. I would not deny any man the right to volunteer and stay in. I think those who have a good billet available and are interested in the work will do it anyway.

General DODGE. Mr. Chairman, might I ask General Fairbourn to make a comment as it applies to the Marine Corps?

Chairman RUSSELL. All right; General Fairbourn.

General FAIRBOURN. I am director of the Marine Corps Reserve, Mr. Chairman.

Our situation in the Marine Corps Reserve is that our Ready Reserve strength will commence a decline, and one of the things that will help us avoid this decline is the equalization of the obligation at 8 years rather than 6.

We consider that a man, of course, is fully trained after 5 years of satisfactory participation, and we keep him on our Ready Reserve rolls until he completes his 8-year obligation. Therefore, we have the value of his training and experience available to us if we need it.

Chairman RUSSELL. Do you keep all of yours now on the Ready Reserve for 8 years?

General FAIRBOURN. For 8 years; yes, sir; those that are in have an 8-year obligation.

Chairman RUSSELL. I know. But how about the participation, do you require them to participate 8 years?

General FAIRBOURN. After they have participated satisfactorily for 5 years they may go into a nontraining category.

Chairman RUSSELL. That is exactly what I am talking about.

General FAIRBOURN. But they are a Ready Reserve until their obligation is discharged.

Therefore, we can keep a larger inventory of ready reservists with an 8-year obligation at less dollar cost.

Chairman RUSSELL. I think you ought to keep these people participating in the Ready Reserve if you are going to call them Ready Reserve.

General FAIRBOURN. We consider them fully trained after 5 years of satifactory service.

Chairman RUSSELL. Well then, you keep them for half a year then after you consider them fully trained?

General FAIRBOURN. Those that have a 6-year obligation; yes, sir. Chairman RUSSELL. How about those who have an 8-year obligation?

General FAIRBOURN. Those that have an 8-year obligation stay in a Ready Reserve status.

Chairman RUSSELL. Do you require them to participate?

General FAIRBOURN. Not after 5 satisfactory years unless they so desire.

Chairman RUSSELL. There is another question I want to ask about the Marine Corps because sometimes the services differ. After he has completed the 6 years, and you say he is still on Ready Reserve but he is not required to participate, can you call him up without approval of Selective Service?

General FAIRBOURN. Yes, sir; if he is still within his 6-year obligated period.

Chairman RUSSELL. I know, but within the 8 years.

General FAIRBOURN. Within the 8 years; yes, sir; we can.

Chairman RUSSELL. You can call him up without going into Selective Service?

General FAIRBOURN. Yes, sir.

Chairman RUSSELL. Well, that makes a substantial difference. I did not know that.

Senator SALTONSTALL. A technical question, General: Turn to section 8 of the bill as you have drafted it. You have:

however, all or any part of such leave which is not used by the officer or employee during the calendar year in which it accrues may be used by him during the first six months of the next calendar year.

Why do you confine it to the first 6 months? Why couldn't you leave out those 6 months? Supposing a man serves in September and does not use all of his leave, and then comes over into the next year. You could say that he could only use it if he used it in the first 6 months of the following year, why couldn't he use it at any time during the calendar year, but not carry it over for a second year?

General DODGE. I think, sir, that this 6 months, additional 6 months, beyond the calendar year in which the leave accrues gives us enough additional flexibility. We do not need more than that amount, and we set it at 6 months.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Well, you do not need it, but how about the poor fellow who may give up his job to go in, doesn't he sacrifice something?

General DODGE. No, sir. What I meant when I said that we do not need it, I mean we do not need it for the man's benefit. Within this 18-month period we have sufficient flexibility to adequately handle the situation so that the man will not have to take it out of his regular leave but rather can take it from the leave given to him for this purpose.

Senator SALTONSTALL. So what would be the effect if we struck out those words "the first 6 months?" Would that upset you?

General DODGE. No, sir. It would just give us, if I understand you correctly, an additional 6 months during which this accrued leave could be used.

Senator SALTONSTALL. That is right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator ERVIN. Mr. Chairman ?

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Stennis is first. I will be glad to recognize you next, Senator Ervin.

Senator STENNIS. Mr. Chairman, I think this ought to be brought out for the record clearly. I am satisfied it does not apply except in a prospective way. These changes here that you propose would ap ply only to these men who come in after this law is passed, is that correct?

General DODGE. That is right, sir.
Senator STENNIS. Is that correct?
General DODGE. That is correct, sir.

Senator STENNIS. All the major parts of it, excluding this Federal leave would apply prospectively?

General DODGE. That is correct.

Senator STENNIS. All right. And you do not ask for a change in the amount of leave or anything?

General DODGE. No, sir.

Senator STENNIS. It is just a bookkeeping matter from fiscal to calendar year and calendar year is what you want to operate under? General DODGE. This is correct, sir, because our training periods run on a calendar year.

Senator STENNIS. Yes.

One more question, please, General. Over here on page 4, I am sure the answer is the same to that, too, but you talk about the obligations on page 4, which is where I made a memo, at least, anyway you are talking about a longer period, and so forth that is prospective in application only. Any reference here to the period of service applies only to those who come in after the law is passed; is that correct? General DODGE. That is correct, sir. Senator STENNIS. All right.

Now, what do you say to this observation; you are talking about keeping the ready supply and having plenty of men, and it looks like to me as if your program, if it is attractive to bring in new men, you come nearer having a chance to have your solid forces there, bringing in new ones all the time, than it would be to try to hold on to what you have, these last 2 years; what is your reaction to that thought? General DODGE. It costs money, sir. It costs a considerable amount to send one of these individuals to 6 months training, and for each year that you can save him, you save that much money.

Chairman RUSSELL. But you have not got as broad a base of people who have had training, have you, General?

Senator STENNIS. Yes.

Chairman RUSSELL. That concept seems to support the idea of reducing the Reserve to 300,000, and the National Guard to 360,000. That is the effect when you confine it to this narrow base of people carrying the whole load.

Senator STENNIS. Your main investment, as I see it, is to bring these men in and give them the training, the basic training, plus some, rather than just keeping them on 2 additional years.

Chairman RUSSELL. We have been fighting here in the Congress against the very philosophy you are advocating, and I intend to do it again this year.

Are there any further questions before General Wilson makes a statement? Senator Cannon.

Senator CANNON. Mr. Chairman, if I may ask, you state on page 5 that those individuals who become members of the Ready Reserve, after attaining age 182, are not subject to priority induction.

Now, what happens, suppose a man is not keeping his obligation current as required, what can you do under the present law?

General DODGE. Well, under the present law, sir, if he is not in the Guard, but is rather in the Reserve he can be sent to 45 days of active duty for training to catch his training up. If he is in the Guard, the same thing can be accomplished under very much more complicated procedures in that the Guard must release the man to the Reserve, the Reserve must then accept him and give him another try, and then if he does not perform properly, he can go to 45 days, but that particular group cannot be reported for priority induction under the present law, sir.

Senator CANNON. And under age 1811⁄2 they are just simply reported in for priority induction?

General DODGE. Yes, sir. Under the law.

Senator CANNON. Now, Senator Stennis asked you if this act was prospective in application, in other words, it applied only to people who came in after the act was passed.

This provision here would apply to people who are in now, would it not, if the act went into effect?

General DODGE. This provision would; yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Which provision is that?

General DODGE. The one on the priority induction, and the 45 days of active duty for training, equalizing those between the two groups of people.

Senator STENNIS. I meant to ask you specifically about that. The 45 days, that is, I thought you said 25-45 days is in your statement! General DODGE. Forty-five days.

Senator STENNIS. So that would be a yearly active duty obligation?

General DODGE. The 45 days are a period of active duty for training to which the man can be called if he has not satisfactorily performed his Reserve duty in order to bring him up knowledgewise to the level of the other members of the unit.

Senator STENNIS. Excuse me, Senator Cannon. I did not mean to intrude on your part. I had not covered that point. Senator CANNON. That is all right.

Chairman RUSSELL. You are talking about calling them up for 45 days training; if he is under 1812 you turn him over to Selective Service and draft him for 2 years, don't you, under existing law, if he does not carry out his Reserve obligation?

General DODGE. That is right, sir.

Chairman RUSSELL. I happen to have had a letter within the past 3 days from a man who was just within that position. He missed a few drills and he was turned over to Selective Service, and was doing boot training.

General DODGE. We try to do it by means of the other first, because this returns the man to the unit in his own community, the unit we would really like to have him in, his Reserve unit, and at-at the same time, brings his level of training up to that of his associates.