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Well now, if that be true, what are some of those areas that have passed from the Army or the Navy to the Air Force, and do you feel that they have properly passed to the Air Force because they fall within the area that you have described as being one that is traditionally reserved to the Air Force?

General WHITE. I think what has passed is more a matter of defining who will have primary responsibility for this. There are no approved space systems that I know of in either the Army and Navy, which have been cut off by this directive.

I think they have all had plans for certain developments and are making studies for certain developments, but I think all of the approved systems have been within the Air Force except for Advent, and Transit.

General SCHRIEVER. That is right.

General WHITE. And those remain with the Army and the Navy, respectively.

The thing that has passed is the primary responsibility for development, test, and research, with the proviso that the special facilities and personnel of the Army and Navy will be available to assist the Air Force in carrying out the primary responsibility in respect to those systems and a proviso that the Army and Navy may continue to study and to exploit, if there be some system peculiarly required by the Army and Navy.

They may present that to the Department of Defense and the Director of Defense Research and Engineering will have the final say whether that goes forward under their own aegis or whether it be turned over to the Air Force for final development. The very same restrictions apply to any Air Force projects in space.

Mr. KING. Are you saying that no projects will actually pass to the Air Force as such by virtue of this directive, but only the remote responsibility for them passes, as opposed to the actual operation, or carrying out of the project?

General WHITE. As far as I know, there are no projects to transfer. The only projects that I know of that have been approved are presently in the Air Force with the exception of the Advent, and the Transit, which are Army and Navy, respectively, and they remain in the Army and Navy, as I understand it.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

Mr. MORRIS. ARPA is considered an agency of the Defense Department and is not either Army, Navy, or Air Force?

General WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MILLER. With regard to answering Mr. Bell, you spoke of the traditional role of the Army in antiaircraft artillery and in point defense.

Now, if we apply this, and Nike-Zeus becomes as successful as we hope it will, is the commander of a battery of Nike-Zeus around Seattle going to have to find out the missile coming over from Alaska and is over Seattle or Minneapolis before he shoots it down, or when the little black dots appear in the system, are we going to then sayand following out what you say, interception within the atmosphereare we going to determine at that time who is going to shoot it down or is it going to be up to the Air Force to go out and intercept it in the air?

I am just wondering if we aren't using "point defense" and "interception within the atmosphere" in terms of weapons that travel at 2 or 3 or maybe 15 Mach, and isn't it a little bit obsolete? Of course, this isn't our field.

General WHITE. We are dealing here with two future systems, but the kind of a situation I think you are envisioning is this. Suppose there were let's just make it easy-a winged space vehicle designed to intercept an incoming warhead and suppose there was a Nike-Zeus in position also able to fire at that warhead. Both of those things are so far in the future that I couldn't tell you exactly how it would work, but neither the commander of the manned or unmanned interceptor type or the Nike-Zeus commander would have the ultimate and freewheeling decision. The entire defense of the continental

Mr. MILLER. Would be put into one thing?

General WHITE. One thing, which is now in NORAD, and they have prescribed very clearly what the procedures are for the use of, for example, the Nike-Hercules, an F-106, or a Bomarc. It is a very complicated thing and cannot be resolved by the individual on the spot. It makes no difference whether it is Army, Navy, Air Force, or who it is, it will be handled from the top.

Mr. MILLER. I want to make sure the objective is going to be to knock down that missile that is coming in.

General WHITE. There is no question about that, Mr. Miller.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Corman has a question.

Mr. CORMAN. If I remember correctly, "Aerospace" is the organization out in Inglewood, Calif. Would you tell me the difference between the Air Force and Aerospace, and NASA and Aerospace? General WHITE. I would like to turn that over to General Schriever, if you don't mind.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we have finished here and I again want to express my confidence in your ability and in your work in the Air Force. You asked to be released when you had completed your testimony, and I think if there is no objection, we will release General White and then we will proceed to talk with General Schriever. General WHITE. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate very much your coming here voluntarily.

General WHITE. My visits here are always stimulating to me and I think highly beneficial to the Nation.

The CHAIRMAN. We have been happy to have you.

General Schriever, you have charge of space research and development and the interests of this committee, of course, go across the board on research and development. I have been interested in the possibilities of this new order and the relative position of the military and the NASA organizations.

Do you subscribe to the fundamental ideas that General White has just given the committee?

(The biography of General Schriever is as follows:)

BIOGRAPHY OF LT. GEN. B. A. SCHRIEVER

German born, Texas reared, Lt. Gen. B. A. Schriever immigrated to the United States in 1917. He was born in Bremen, Germany, on September 14, 1910. Graduating from Texas A. & M. in 1931 with a B.S., he started his military career that same year when he accepted a Reserve appointment in the Field Artillery.

After assignments to March Field, Calif., and Albrook Field, Panama Canal Zone, the then-lieutenant reverted to Inactive Reserve status. Meanwhile, he accepted a position as pilot with Northwest Airlines.

Reentering the service as a second lieutenant in the Regular Army in October 1938, Schriever performed duty at Hamilton Field, Calif., and Wright Field, Ohio. In 1941 he entered Stanford University and in June 1942 was awarded a master's degree.

In July 1942, Major Schriever joined the 19th Bomb Group in the Southwest Pacific. While in that theater, he participated in the Bismarck Archipelago, Leyte, Luzon, Papua, North Solomon, south Philippine and Ryukyu campaigns. From 1946 to 1949, General Schriever was assigned as Chief, Scientific Liaison Section, Deputy Chief of Staff, Materiel, Headquarters U.S. Air Force. Entering the National War College in 1949, he was graduated in June 1950. He then returned to USAF Headquarters where he served as assistant for development planning. In June 1954, he became assistant to the commander, ARDC and in July of that same year, although retained as assistant to the commander, ARDC he assumed command of the Air Force Ballistic Missile Division.

As commander of AFBMD, General Schriever directed the Nation's highest priority project-the development of the intercontinental ballistic missile. Not only was he responsible for telescoping time in the research and development on all technical phases of the Atlas, Titan, Thor, and Minuteman missiles and for Air Force space systems but he also directed the management program for concurrently providing the launching sites and equipment, tracking facilities, and ground support equipment necessary to these programs.

In April 1959, General Schriever assumed command of the Air Research and Development Command with headquarters at Andrews Air Force Base, Md.

Today he is responsible for managing the global military-science-industry brainpower required to provide the Air Force with the military tools to do its job: Weapons of superior quality, created and developed by engineering and scientific leadership.

General Schriever's management responsibility includes monitorship of more than 6,400 research and development contracts in which about 1,500 major contractors engage in work on Air Force weapon systems, materiel, equipment, and special projects.

General Schriever is married to the former Dora Brett. The couple has three children. They are: Brett Arnold, Dodie Elizabeth and Barbara Alice.

STATEMENT OF LT. GEN. B. A. SCHRIEVER, COMMANDER, AIR RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT COMMAND

General SCHRIEVER. Yes, sir, in every way, particularly with respect to his comments pertaining to our relationships and working with and cooperating with the NASA.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no effort on the part of the Air Force to encroach on the normal fields of NASA activity, is there?

General SCHRIEVER. No, sir. I think that I have testified before your committee a number of times in the past and I can truthfully say I think that our relationships have been improving with time. We have had time to work out a lot of detailed working arrangements and I feel that our relationships with NASA, today, are better than they have ever been and I know of no controversy at any point in our relationships at the present time.

The CHAIRMAN. One thing I have failed to ask General White I will ask you: We had last year hearings on the trisonic transport, which involves, as you know, the B-70. How is that coming along? General SCHRIEVER. The trisonic transport?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, and, of course, we recognize it is tied hand. and foot to the B-70 program.

General SCHRIEVER. The B-70 technology, of course, will make a very great contribution to any supersonic transport. Now, the re

sponsibility for the supersonic transport as far as the Government is concerned, rests within the FAA.

I have already discussed this with Mr. Halaby, the new Administrator for the FAA. We will be working very closely with them on studies relating to a supersonic transport and that is about as far as we will probably go during the next year or so-to conduct additional technical studies. These will be under the supervision of the FAA, with the Air Force

The CHAIRMAN. Just one moment if you will, General.

All right, General. Excuse me.

General SCHRIEVER. And we will, of course, be working directly with the FAA, as will the Navy, and

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt there.

NASA is doing some of the work for you on the B-70 program, are they not?

General SCHRIEVER. Yes. They do a lot

The CHAIRMAN. That is an area of coordination between you? General SCHRIEVER. Absolutely. The relationship between the Services and the NASA, in the aeronautical field, has never really been in question, I believe. We continue to use their facilities and they work with us. The X-15 is a good example. We certainly use their wind tunnels and they do experimental work for us in the supersonic area.

There has been no change in that relationship at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Well now, you see no reason, do you, General, why in the future that the military can't take care of its problems and NASA take care of the peacetime developments of space?

General SCHRIEVER. I see no reason why we cannot work shoulder to shoulder in the most cooperative manner and there is plenty to do for both, I can assure you.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no further questions.

Any questions, Mr. Miller?

Mr. MILLER. I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Morris, Mr. King, Mr. Randall?

Mr. RANDALL. I am not certain I understood about the X-15 statement, General. Did you say there was a relationship with some other agency in connection with that? I missed it. I just missed the point. General SCHRIEVER. The X-15 is a joint NASA-Navy-Air Force program. All three agencies have put moneys into the program and all three agencies participate in the test of the X-15. It is a joint program in every sense of the word.

Mr. RANDALL. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bell?
Mr. BELL. I have no questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Corman ?

Mr. CORMAN. I would like to inquire into the relationship of the Air Force and NASA and the Navy, particularly, as to who has the decision-making powers as to what projects to go forward with in Aerospace.

General SCHRIEVER. The Aerospace is an independent organization. It is not a captive of the Air Force. However, it was created by the Air Force and the programs that it

Mr. MILLER. Will the gentleman yield?

General, would you expand a little bit on what you mean by "created by the Air Force"? Give us some of the history. I assume what you say for Aerospace goes for Rand. I think you have four of these agencies, have you not?

General SCHRIEVER. Rand, of course, was established by the Air Force back in 1946. General Arnold was really the moving force behind the creation of Rand and it is quite a different type of operation than Aerospace. Rand really is in the study and analysis and evaluation sort of thing, and works not only for the Air Force, although it is primary working for the Air Force. It also has done studies for the Ford Foundation, it has done studies for the AEC, and it is still doing so.

So we are not the sole agency working with Rand.

Now, Aerospace, as I said, was created by the Air Force. We felt and still feel very strongly that we need an agency of this type to work with us in the overall management of our space and ballistic missile programs.

Aerospace, however, is not barred from doing work for other Government agencies. For example, if NASA wanted Aerospace to do certain things for them they would be available to NASA for that

purpose.

The other organizations that you had in mind, the Mitre Corporation, up in Boston, was created primarily to create systems integration of the Sage Air Defense System. We have expanded their role to that of providing us with technical assistance in the overall command area. That is the communications and control systems, in addition to just Sage, Sage being an air defense system tied into the total NORAD Command.

I don't know whether I have described adequately the relationship between the Air Force and Aerospace, but Aerospace works directly with the Ballistic Missile Division on the West Coast, and they are geographically located together.

Mr. CORMAN. You could give Aerospace a particular problem, or a particular thing to develop. NASA might do the same thing; is that right?

General SCHRIEVER. That is right.

Mr. CORMAN. That is what I didn't quite understand.

General SCHRIEVER. They are not barred from working with NASA. As a matter of fact, they are in essence working for NASA today in the Mercury program because the Air Force has the responsibility of supporting NASA in the booster and launch end of the Mercury program. We actually provide the Atlas booster and work under the supervision of NASA, but in turn the technical assistance to BMD is furnished by Aerospace in the Mercury program so they are, in effect, working for NASA right there.

Mr. CORMAN. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. General, you now have a new title. What is your new title for the record?

General SCHRIEVER. I don't have it yet. This will be effective on 1 April and the new title will be the Commander of the Air Force Systems Command.

it?

The CHAIRMAN. Now, that gives you more responsibility, doesn't

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