Mr. FULTON. So as a matter of fact, this directive in part overruled the recommendations of the Joint Chiefs because all the recommendations of the Joint Chiefs were not unanimously given nor accepted.

Secretary GILPATRIC. I think it would be more correct to state, if I may say, that the Joint Chiefs did not collectively consider this. We had the individaul Service positions through the Service Secretaries and we had the views of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, himself.

All of those four sets of comments were considered and as you say, some of the views were not conformed to in the directive.

Mr. FULTON. Could we have those views put in the record, Mr. Chairman, with your consent, and likewise, the statements of each of the Services on this proposed directive, both in its original and in its amended form?

The CHAIRMAN. Are they available, sir?

Secretary GILPATRIC. I think they are available. I want to take counsel as to whether there is any question of executive privilege here. For my own part, I don't see why the Committee shouldn't know these views. As a matter of fact, many of the views you have heard in previous hearings-because I have seen them referred to in the record. You have heard General Trudeau, you have heard Admiral Connolly, and Admiral Hayward, and you have heard General Shriever.

Mr. FULTON. With your consent, Mr. Chairman, may we put those in the record publicly which are not held by the Secretary to be classified? I will limit it to that. Otherwise make them available to the staff of the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that satisfactory?

Secretary GILPATRIC. Very well.

(By later decision, the material in question was not made available to the committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it is so ordered.

Mr. FULTON. General Trudeau is Chief of Research and Development of the Department of the Army, Mr. Chairman. I would like to refer to his statement when he came before our committee on February 17, 1961, where in his statement he had said-and I will read the exact language he recommended.

That joint military space agency today would have the capability of organizing programs and systems to solve this situation and then be able to expand progressively as required to an overall national agency both military and civilian for overall operation.

I understand from your statement today that statement of General Trudeau has been overridden, is that not right?

Secretary GILPATRIC. It is the judgment of the Secretary of Defense and myself as it was the judgment of Secretary McElroy, that a new joint defense agency for space would not be desirable so we do not agree with General Trudeau.

Mr. FULTON. Does this mean that the Navy loses the Polaris research and development and testing program?

Secretary GILPATRIC. It does not in any sense.

Mr. FULTON. Does the Navy lose the engineering program?
Secretary GILPATRIC. On the Polaris?

Mr. FULTON. Yes.

Secretary GILPATRIC. No, this directive, Mr. Fulton, does not affect any preexisting assignments including Polaris, Advent and Transit, or Nike-Zeus.

Mr. FULTON. In the Advent program, is the Army going to lose the Advent program?

Secretary GILPATRIC. This directive does not affect the Advent program. The Advent program was assigned to the Army before this directive I don't say there are not problems with the Advent program and they are under review, but this does not affect it.

Mr. FULTON. The Notus program will be of interest to the Navy because it is navigational. Will that be under the Air Force? Secretary GILPATRIC. The Transit, do you mean?

Mr. FULTON. Transit, I mean.

Secretary GILPATRIC. No, Transit stays with the Navy. That was a preexisting assignment not affected by the directive.

Mr. FULTON. How about the new Nimbus program that will be coming up?

Secretary GILPATRIC. I am not familiar with that, Mr. Fulton. Mr. FULTON. I am running short on time, and I have one more minute. The Army has the Operations Research Office, Johns Hopkins University and likewise the Navy has the Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins University, and the Institute for Defense Analyses in Washington.

Likewise, NASA has the Jet Propulsion Laboratory at the California Institute of Technology out in Pasadena and the Atomic Energy Commission has the Radiation Laboratory, University of California, at Livermore and Los Alamos, and likewise the Argonne National Laboratory of the University of Chicago, and Brookhaven, of Associated Universities at Long Island.

Department of Defense has the Institute for Defense Analyses and the FAA has the Mitre Corp. at Bedford, Massachusetts.

Will you please put in the record how these various agencies are to be affected by this directive? Does it mean that the Air Force contractual agencies or institutions that I have mentioned, will now be the ones upon which the research and development program will be centered and the Army, the Navy, and NASA, the Atomic Energy Commission and the Department of Defense agency as well as the FAA, are all going to be either downgraded or eliminated? If you would just give me a general comment, then I would like that individually in the record.

(The further information requested is as follows:)

The organizations listed by Mr. Fulton are involved in space activities to varying degrees ranging from a relatively minor portion of its total activity in the case of Argonne National Laboratory to a major portion in the case of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. There are also varying degrees of these different levels of space activity which are conducted specifically for the Department of Defense. It is not anticipated that the new space directive will have any significant impact on the percentage of their efforts devoted to space activity nor is any downgrading or elimination of space effort expected to result directly from the new space directive.

Secretary GILPATRIC. My general comment, Mr. Fulton, is that all of the Services are free to develop new ideas, to use their resources, their laboratories. I recognize that the ones you have mentioned are among our greatest assets in our whole national security organization. Mr. FULTON. I want to preserve them.

Secretary GILPATRIC. We want to preserve them and make the best use of them. They will be permitted to develop in the preliminary stages any projects which are of importance to these Services.

68138 0-61- +3

Now how, after a development has been approved by the Secretary and myself, we will best harness these resources to the furtherance of that development is something which the Director of Defense Research and Engineering will see to being done.

I would like, however, to submit a statement in detail covering the point you have mentioned.

Mr. FULTON. I should say to you you ought to change the name of the Air Force because there is no air in space.

(The statement requested for the record is as follows:)

It is planned that each project or program to be submitted to the Secretary of Defense will be supported by a detailed development plan and supporting fiscal plan. Review of these documents and discussions with the cognizant Service (s) concerned will be the basis of DDR&E actions or recommendations to Secretary of Defense. Effective utilization of the available resources of the DOD will continue to be a major factor in the determinations. All preliminary research for developing new ways of using space technology will be handled in accordance with a DOD Instruction now under preparation.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Miller.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Secretary, you stressed the fact that pre-existing programs will remain where they are. Now how about future programs? Will sufficient future programs be assigned outside the Air Force to keep intact the competence and know-how of the scientists and dedicated officers in these Services?

Secretary GILPATRIC. Mr. Miller, until we know what future programs are going to be funded for full development, I cannot answer in detail your question. We have reserved to ourselves the right in this directive, the Secretary and myself, to make assignments to other than the Air Force, but the purpose of this directive is to centralize our efforts and not to have the Army and the Navy and other agencies in the Defense Department spreading themselves more broadly than they need to.

The Navy has a very important field of research endeavor: The whole underwater and surface water of the globe. Oceanography. The Army has many important missions. The amount of effort being spent today, for example, on the Nike-Zeus program. It may take away, distract some of the resources which the Army has for pursuing other types of research.

We think we can bring about a management of this totality of resources which will be to the best interests of the country by certain assignments. However, we will never lose sight of the consideration which you have mentioned, namely that when we do make new assignments, we won't lose the benefit of the personnel and resources we have. Mr. MILLER. Of course, you just mentioned Nike-Zeus. The Air Force has been opposed to Nike-Zeus. Let's call a spade a spade. Is it going to throttle Nike-Zeus, now, or are we going to allow enough flexibility in this program to do something about Nike-Zeus?

Secretary GILPATRIC. You are asking about a position on which the President, himself, has not yet acted. I can assure you that the Secretary of Defense and myself aren't going to allow any one Service to throttle another Service. That is what we are there to prevent. Mr. MILLER. Of course, Mr. Secretary, this committee, as I interpret it, its responsibility goes primarily to research and development. We have the peaceful uses, but NASA is interested in research and development. For years Mr. Brooks and I were both members of the Armed Services Committee. We heard about the necessity for scien

tists, we saw this thing, we saw dedicated men driven out of the Service or maybe that is too strong, but dedicated men like General Gavin and General Medaris who chose to leave the Service, who could have remained in them longer, who made great contributions in this field, because there was somebody gobbling them up.

It seems to me we used to talk about the healthfulness of interService rivalry. Do you believe that inter-Service rivalry in these fields in conducive to the best thinking and the best development?

Secretary GILPATRIC. Up to a point. I think there is a point beyond which inter-Service rivalry is not to the best interests of the country. Mr. MILLER. I am talking about inter-Service rivalry in research and development. In the initiation of programs.

Secretary GILPATRIC. We think we have drawn the line, Mr. Miller, at the right point. As I saw written up in some paper, there is no restriction here on the right to think in any Service. There are some very fine people in the Service who haven't left. The officers I have seen since I have come down here, General Trudeau, General Schriever, and the other research people mentioned, they are not going to be curtailed in what they can contribute to this very important area. is a matter of management. There aren't limitless funds, here. You speak of the Nike-Zeus. That is a program that could involve billions of dollars. These space programs are tremendously expensive and there is a limit on how much you can put

It

Mr. MILLER. I think you can cite the silos we are building now that may be obsolete in the next 10 years before we get them built which are costing millions and millions of dollars.

Secretary GILPATRIC. And it gives me a great deal of concern to see us putting that much money into apparatus which may not be usable another decade from now.

But we have had it before and I am afraid our national security demands we do it again.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Secretary, I have got to quit, but I just want to say that I want to make sure I would like to be assured by the Defense Department that the step you are taking now is not going to dampen the spirit of younger officers coming into these departments, feeling that the door is going to be closed to them.

I think I can tell you that many of them are unhappy, and many of the very good ones, some of the people you have mentioned are very unhappy. They are too good a soldier to parade this, but this is the case. Are we going to dampen their spirits? Are we going to retard the very thing that we have been fighting for, the very thing that we need, the scientists, engineers, and the people who could go out and do this job?

What would have happened, where would we have been over the long, dry years, if the Army, with a group of dedicated men down. at Huntsville, working with pennies, hadn't developed perhaps the only positive booster that we have?

And then have it taken away from them with the single stroke of a pen. These aren't rewards for good service, are they?

Secretary GILPATRIC. I might repeat two of the best scientists we have in the Government today, Dr. Wiesner and Dr. York, agree with the philosophy behind this directive.

Mr. MILLER. You see, you put me in a very humiliating position because Dr. York, until he changes his residence to La Jolla, is my constituent.

There is one other thing I would like to ask the Secretary, Mr. Chairman, and then I am going to quit:

The Air Force has a number of nonprofit organizations that it supports in some direct way.

I wonder if it would be possible for you to have supplied for us and put into the record, the officers of such organizations as the Rand Corp., Aerospace, and the rest of them, along with their salaries?

The CHAIRMAN. Will you yield at that point. The staff is studying that particular matter now and we will probably have some hearings later. I think it would be preferable, if it is all right with the gentleman from California, that that information be given to the staff so we can develop it later.

Mr. MILLER. I will do that because when that comes along, in trying to create this atmosphere for scientists I just happen to have an ad placed in a magazine by Aerospace, saying what we are going to do.

Secretary GILPATRIC. I was going to say, you will probably have me before you again, because I was chairman of the board of Aerospace at the request of the Government.

Mr. MILLER. I would like to know how these are set up, because maybe the other Services should set up comparable corporations to help them in their plight.

The CHAIRMAN. I will ask counsel to put the Secretary's name down for a future witness.

(The information requested, when received, will be found in the files of the committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Before recognizing anybody else, I would like to ask the Secretary this:

How is your statement made this morning affected by the new directive of the Air Force that was released just a few minutes ago?

Secretary GILPATRIC. The new organizational setup in the Air Force was in response to a request-in fact, the directive of the Secretary and myself that the Air Force make certain changes within its organization to put itself in a position to take on these added responsibilities. These two things are keyed together, and I think when the Air Force witnesses are before you, you will see that the Air Force will be in a better position to service the needs of its sister agencies to the extent that it is called upon to do so, as a result of those changes.

But the two are related and the one that has just been announced is in response to the Secretary's and my feeling that the Air Force should be better organized to handle this assignment.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a reorganization of the Air Force to handle space, then?

Secretary GILPATRIC. Correct. In part. In part, it handles other weapons systems, too.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chenoweth.

Mr. CHENOWETH. Mr. Secretary, do you feel this directive is going to accelerate and promote our research program or is it going to have the effect of perhaps retarding the same until some of these issues can be straightened out?